Speaker 1: 0:00

I went to my leader and I'm like I'm going to specialize in private aircraft. They were like what?

Speaker 2: 0:06

Can you describe with us some of your most memorable deals it?

Speaker 1: 0:08

was a 1993 Challenger. The owner was he was in the Hall of Fame for baseball. I had no experience when I started. I was like, okay, I'm ready to do insurance, you study, you do the licensing, and then you get thrown in and nothing is the same as the test. Wait, but it is. So you get thrown in and nothing is the same as the test. Wait, what is this?

Speaker 2: 0:30

So it's fun. Hello and welcome. My name is Tom Lelio. I'm your ultimate jet guide and today we're pulling back the curtain on private aviation to help you buy and sell private jets with no experience necessary to get started. Today we're pulling back the curtain on aviation insurance Again. I know it seems like we have a lot of insurance agents on the channel, but this is really great because this is an opportunity for us to broaden our horizons, to not just look at aviation sales as brokering whole aircraft, but now considering aviation sales as broader like we could talk about charter broker. We talk about aviation insurance sales, which is what my guest is going to talk about today. So I'm super excited to be welcoming Samantha Money. Yes, that is her last name. She's with the Baldwin Group, which is an independent insurance agency. She's a certified advisor of personal insurance specializing in aviation insurance for ultra high net worth individuals seeking a mid to large cabin class aircraft. So, samantha, thank you so much for hopping on the podcast, especially on short notice. Welcome, thank you for being here.

Speaker 1: 1:36

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Big fan of the show Awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:40

Oh, yeah, right, thank you. I appreciate that You're the subscriber. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 2:06

It's great to finally meet you. Well, let's hop right into it. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into aviation. On ultra high net worth accounts that were focused more on ensuring their estates and auto and umbrella, and I did that for a really long time and I started getting clients that were purchasing aircraft and when they purchased it, I'd go to a broker because I had no idea what any of it meant and it was just so exciting and intriguing to find out more about the coverages. So I started on the weekends listening to podcasts and going to events and reading and, like this is total aviation nerd, but it sucked me in the industry, just sucked me in, and once I started focusing on the aircraft, it was like there was no going back for me. So, um, I how long ago, was that? A few years. So I've been in the insurance industry for over a decade now, um, and it's been my specialty for a while now.

Speaker 2: 3:07

So what kind of if you don't mind me asking I'm sorry to interrupt what kind of? What kind of podcasts and resources were you listening to? It was like NBAA stuff.

Speaker 1: 3:17

Was it a mix of everything. I mean, look, you were one of the first people actually in the industry that I followed, and so you know I would listen to yours, I would listen to all sorts of you know. I'll admit one of the other first ones was Preston Holland, and so you know, I just started listening to people that were in my network and kind of gauging different avenues, because, even though it had nothing to do with insurance, it was really important to me to understand all of the different, all the different industries within the industry. So you know the financing and the aircraft sales and you know even the aircraft attorneys, it, it all affects what I do, and so I want to understand also what's going on with everybody as a whole, so that we're all united kind of on one front. So I also my husband would come in and I'd be watching like YouTube videos on aircraft.

Speaker 1: 4:17

So you know, like lifestyle of rich and famous. He'd be like what are you watching, style of rich and famous? You'd be like what are you watching? So, um, you know it was. It was kind of a mix of of everything. Um, and yeah, I mean there's so many people that have incredible. You know we're really lucky the uh so getting.

Speaker 2: 4:43

So you were doing, uh were you doing? You were doing insurance for, for uh, for ultra high net worth individuals. Then you got into specializing within aviation. Is there anything specific like what is the typical pathway for someone to go from zero you know, watching youtube videos to selling aviation insurance to ultra high net worth individuals? You had a few steps, I imagine, like you first had to get an insurance license, then you had to work with someone that was working with these ultra high net worth individuals that actually put like aircraft transactions in front of you to deal with, and then from there you're like, wow, I really like this, let me specialize. You know, maybe there was further training in aviation. Or can you walk us through? What does that pathway typically look like for someone?

Speaker 1: 5:27

There are a lot of agencies that you can go straight into aviation. You don't need to have any background and they can teach you all about insuring the plane and focusing on getting the operation covered. I think for me my trajectory was a little different because, having a private client background, I really was focused on risk management and not just protecting the asset but also protecting the client because I was still making sure that they weren't going to lose their wealth on the private client side. So you know, for me it's a lot of risk management. So I think you can go a couple ways. You can go straight in and start learning about all things aviation, or you can always start on a different route, like I did, and then kind of make your way and it kind of benefits you having all of these other skills, that and relationships that I had and bringing them of make your way and it kind of benefits you having all of these other skills, that and relationships that I had and bringing them to what I do now.

Speaker 2: 6:29

So did you approach your um, your office, and be like, hey, we should do an aviation thing? Or did they have an aviation project coming and they're like, hey, you're, you'd be the person for a great fit. So you know you had a mentor, or were you figuring out all on your own, Like what did that process kind of look? Like what?

Speaker 1: 6:44

that looked like was. I went to my reader and I'm like I'm going to specialize in private aircraft and insuring it, and they were like what?

Speaker 2: 6:56

Can you describe with us, kind of, some of your most memorable deals? Maybe it's your first deal or transaction that you put through, or maybe it's a recent transaction. One of the reasons why you and I were able to connect was because of your LinkedIn posts about you know the importance of pilots in a given transaction, so can you share with us maybe one or two of your most memorable deals?

Speaker 1: 7:17

Yeah, I mean the first deal got I I'll have to admit, like you know, I don't know how much I actually I knew what I was talking about and I knew about the coverages, but I definitely I don't know mix of uncertainty and the experience. Just it's funny looking back. It was a 1993 Challenger and it was for an owner of. Of course the owner was he was in the Hall of Fame for baseball. So I was very nervous because that's a lot of pressure on a first deal you don't want to screw up. So I feel like that was obviously an interesting one. I think the ones for me that really are memorable are the ones that you get creative to make them work and like help the client. So specific, he only wanted this really broad and this isn't even like a crazy account, but he wanted a broad, broad, broad pilot warranty, all he wanted. He didn't care about price, he didn't care about anything, that's all he wanted. And of course all the carriers were being super strict about everything being a specific way.

Speaker 2: 8:43

That broad pilot warranty that's having as many having to be able to fly it as a year ago that don't exist anymore really.

Speaker 1: 8:50

So I ended up getting him you know pretty decent terms at first and like the best that I could, as broad as I could get, but it wasn't good enough. I was like no, I I gotta keep working this. And so I went back to one of my underwriters like the day before I'm like, hey, last chance, like they're gonna, they're gonna move to x company and the underwriter ended up writing the broadest and it's like stuff like that where you know, calling the client and being like I did it, I got it done. Um, I feel like those are memorable because it's it makes you feel good as a broker, because you're helping the client get what they need. You're also giving good business to the company, so you're also helping your company because it's a partnership both ways. You know yeah, so yeah, and I think you know another example just I had a really large account that I went after and I did not get it the first year.

Speaker 1: 9:56

Large account that I went after and I did not get it the first year and I went back at it and I found some major, major gaps. And again, this was also really ultra high net worth, individual and being able to point out oh my God, you had it on the helicopter actually and it was just atrocious what was going on. And so you also feel like you're helping people too, like I'm like I saved you from a major, major gap, if something happens. So it's kind of like those deals where you you either find major gaps or you get something accomplished. That makes you feel really good.

Speaker 2: 10:30

Can you describe a day in a life now maybe not for yourself as a partner and doing it, you know, and now you're kind of doing your thing, especially for someone who's looking to get into aviation sales, maybe through the lens of insurance? What, what, what should they expect?

Speaker 1: 10:45

uh, you know, their first couple of days to look like yeah, I mean it's kind wild, it's no days are the same. So that's why I really like it and why I think it's so exciting is that no day is the same and no client is the same. Every single thing that you work on it's got something unique kind of twisted on it. But you know, one day I might be structuring a complex corporate flight department situation and then the next day I'm just talking to, you know, a private buyer who's you know, looking for a Gulfstream and trying to figure out the pilot requirements and how we can get them to not have to have a buddy pilot and things like that. So I feel like the life every day is different. It's.

Speaker 1: 11:35

Some days you're quoting a lot, some days you're talking with underwriters a lot. Some days you're networking a lot and just doing Zooms with people. I like to also do a lot of networking and get to know people in the industry because I just think again, even everybody connects in a different way with what you're doing. And so, um, yeah, I think meeting with clients it's every day is just a handful of. I mean, in the beginning, the first two days, I mean it's probably shadowing someone and trying to figure out what you're even doing Um. But yeah, it gets really complex and exciting the more you do it. I think that it's extremely exciting.

Speaker 2: 12:19

What kind of person or personality usually thrives and I'm sure there's different personality types that could thrive but like what are some things that stand out to you of? Like, okay, if you are like this, that's great. Or if you're like this, like maybe it's not going to be a good fit, like, can you give us some insight?

Speaker 1: 12:37

I think you have to be and I think you would agree with this, tom for any sales. I think if you're in sales, you have to be driven and you have to want to work, and I think that that. I know that that sounds crazy, but it's like like if you're a driven person who obviously is outgoing enough, and you have to be OK with making a fool of yourself or not knowing if you're saying the right thing or doing the right thing Fast paced environment. You know you have to be able to multitask. Oh my God, you have to be able to multitask oh my god, you have to be able to multitask.

Speaker 2: 13:17

Is it mostly inbound calls or outbound calls like? What kind of traffic are you usually?

Speaker 1: 13:20

it's both. You know, we I do a lot of business on my own and then I I also have um people in my office who will be like hey, I have a client who's purchasing aircraft. So it comes both ways. But I would also say you have to think outside the box, you have to be a problem solver and relationships have to mean something to you, because you're building relationships not only with the client but again, the underwriter and oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 13:47

Yes, yes, I, yeah, I dabbled in insurance for a little while. Nothing huge Like my father-in-law is an insurance broker, and so we were a nationwide captive agent at the time and just smiling and dialing for auto and home insurance. And so the underwriter thing was so important because I could get people to quote all day but, knowing the right risks that I knew my underwriter would actually be successful with.

Speaker 1: 14:16

They can trust you, that they're placing good business and that you're almost like frontline underwriting and doing your due diligence, cause if they don't trust you, you're not going to get anywhere in the whole business. I'd also do. Having like a little bit of that risk management personality also helps because again, you're you kind of got to look at. I mean, insurance is about risk, so it's really wanting to help help people and protect people from the unimaginable.

Speaker 2: 14:49

Hmm, yeah, so the ability to look ahead. Hmm, yeah, so the ability to look ahead. That's why it's important. I think that people have to understand, in aviation, these, when you're dealing with high net worth individuals, when you're dealing, when you're playing at this high of a level with your clients, um, that's why it's really hard for someone who, fresh out of college, 21, 22, with not a lot of life experience, to get in the door because they haven't seen as much um, and so they don't have the ability to look ahead around corners that they just haven't experienced. And it doesn't necessarily have to be aviation, but just that life experience of, like, what really happens, like when somebody loses an important asset, or when, when tragedy strikes somebody, like how does that feel you?

Speaker 1: 15:49

know and I understand that. So for those younger salespeople that are starting out, it's still doable even without that experience, if you're willing to learn claim situations. They say X, this has happened, and I think, as long as you're open to hearing it, because they can still repeat those stories and say, True, oh yeah, and so it's just being open to understanding and learning because I agree, it's as you get older, obviously it affects you too. You know, Like I worked really hard for that.

Speaker 2: 16:33

Yeah, I don't want anything to happen to it someone who's coming into this insurance sales you know world um, what, what, what should they expect to make in? Like their first year versus the third year versus a 50 year, like what kind of um, how do people how do you get people get paid? I think that's important for people. They don't always know that, especially in sales, we can go different ways, and what should their expectations be? Are there insurance salespeople that are making half a million plus a year? Is it mostly just a six figure and below? Can you pull back the curtain a little bit for us on what that looks like?

Speaker 1: 17:08

And this is a very broad question because it kind of depends. Every agency works different. So there are some agencies that will do, you know, maybe a small, small salary where it's like I'm making this up, I don't really know exactly Maybe like $50,000. Okay, so it's like summer bank, but you get X amount of commission on every single deal that you write. So if you write X amount of deals, you're going to be well over that. So it's kind of like a safety net, you know.

Speaker 1: 17:41

And then you have some companies that are going to put you on a draw where they'll say we'll pay you 200,000 to start and you have to make this in the next two years, or your draw gets cut. You have to make this in the next two years, or your draw gets cut. And then, you know, eventually you just start getting on straight commission. Look, you can make a lot of money in insurance, especially in aviation. I mean, it's just who you're working on deals with, what type of deals, especially like the commercial aviation side, to make sure, like the business side, and there's a lot of money to be had, in that you know for when you're insuring a charter company or insuring an MRO, and the condition the commissions are usually based on the premium, correct?

Speaker 1: 18:34

Correct. So if the premium is $900,000, I'm making that up for like a larger company and you get 15% of that, then the advisor might get us another cut of that amount.

Speaker 2: 18:47

Okay, so it's like brokering. Okay, okay, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:50

So I mean you can make a lot of money. I think people can expect to, probably in their first year. I mean, I don't know, I would expect that you can make six figures in the first couple of years if you work hard, you know. But yeah, the good thing is that a lot of it is on commission, just like brokering. So it's kind of like this I don't I hate to use a pun, but like sky's the limit. You know, you can, you can really. That's why I like sales is the more harder you work, the more you get for yourself and and things like that. Another thing too in insurance, which is kind of unique, like an agency that I work at, is you can also make money in other ways. So like, if you like, if I source business, like the commercial business, like the commercial aviation piece, you can get paid on that too. So there are other ways that you can, you know can figure it out and do they have?

Speaker 2: 19:52

can you get paid with residuals as well, like are you building a book of business that's constantly paying you?

Speaker 1: 19:56

Yep. So I have a book of business and then you get paid X at new business and then renewal, you get paid X.

Speaker 2: 20:02

Yeah that's, I mean that's, that's a great you know thing.

Speaker 1: 20:21

Cause you're selling, just trying to keep your coins happy and keep them in your book and hopefully they stay and it was kind of renew and keep working with them to make sure they have the best premium and product that they can have.

Speaker 2: 20:33

So how does someone kind of get into that, like what skills or certifications do they need? Like can they graduate Ember Riddle? And just like show up at your office and be like hey, are you hiring? You know, I'll start selling.

Speaker 1: 20:43

Absolutely. You have to get a property and casualty license. Okay, not anything crazy, but you, you know it's not anything crazy, but you, you know you do have to take an insurance licensing exam.

Speaker 2: 20:56

But do you need them to finish that and get that on their own before they even talk to you, or will your company or something?

Speaker 1: 21:02

pay for it. No, no, no, no. The agency would would pay for it and and help with. You know, oh, not anymore. Okay, At least ours. I don't know how other agencies would work, but you know, people can come in with. I had no experience when I started. I was kind of the same way. I was like, OK, I'm ready to do insurance, and so you get you study, you do the licensing, and then you get thrown in and nothing is the same as the test, so wait what is this, so it's fun.

Speaker 1: 21:33

So if you want to also do external classes, I took um the aviation insurance association class. It's called the core principles class. It was extremely beneficial. It that, I feel like, is when I turned a corner and what like my knowledge base and what I knew and you just can continue to learn. Like I'm going to also go to the tax and risk strategies for NBAA in October. So I feel like you there's a lot of resources to kind of give you knowledge, to kind of keep growing who you are as a broker. It's not like you learn and then you're just done. You can keep growing, yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:15

Gotcha Okay, so you can come in with limited background, but do you? So? Let me ask you this do you do the hiring? Are you currently hiring? Are insurance agents hiring?

Speaker 1: 22:29

Insurance agencies are always hiring.

Speaker 2: 22:30

Like they are in just general insurance?

Speaker 1: 22:32

Or is it like yeah, we would look to hire anybody for private client, for aviation, for commercial lines. It's like you know, all insurance. I feel like they're open to hiring. It's just for people that want to learn and really want to succeed.

Speaker 2: 22:54

If you're open to hiring. Are you getting a flood of inquiries or no?

Speaker 1: 22:59

Yeah, we do get floods of inquiries. You know, I think the aviation side is a little more masked like in general. Well, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 23:11

You know a lot of people want the private client or the commercial. I think I don't know if everybody even really thinks or knows about it. It's like one of those things that are talked about but you know people aren't like oh yeah, I need to get into aviation insurance. It's kind of like it either falls into your lap because maybe you were, you had like a family member that was in aviation. You know, just like I feel like it's one of those things that are going to get more popular and always hiring.

Speaker 2: 23:43

So what makes you pull? You got your stack of applications. What makes you pull an application out and be like, okay, it's time If you're always hiring. Is that the case that you're always hiring, or is there a need? And then you just kind of keep a stack and then, okay, how does somebody you know separate themselves?

Speaker 1: 24:03

I was going to say that that, like the company is always hiring Cause first off it would be, you know, the ballroom group. I think that they're always open, they're open to good talent, so like it might not even be always hiring Cause, like I guess what I meant. Like if somebody came to the office, like, for instance, my brother has, he's in commercial insurance and he has a friend right now that's interested in insurance but she's not quite sure and you know. So it's like we're always open to those conversations for people that are sales driven and want to work hard and want to learn and be the best at what they do. So I think, um, it's not so much just always looking, it's just we are always open to, you know, broadening our team if it's the right fit.

Speaker 2: 24:52

I love that if it's the right fit, because basically this is this is sales, one-on-one, right. I mean you, you can call a prospect and it's great when they're like they're open. But in some ways it's kind of the hardest prospect, right, because if you call up and they say no, they're not interested, you know I just renewed, Okay, fine, you put them on a list and I'll go whatever. And if you call someone like yes, I'm interested, like show me your pitch. Like okay, like, do your pitch? You know, you kind of know what to do with a yes and a no.

Speaker 2: 25:17

But when, the when I called an owner and like, yeah, I'm open, but I'm not, you know I don't need to sell, you know. Or, yeah, everything's for sale and you know, with the right price and all that kind of stuff, that's where I think you need to, as an individual, like take the ownership right. Responsibility is one of our core values. Take the ownership of like okay, if this is what I want, if I really want this listing, I really want this job. I got to find a way to professionally follow up and make an impression Like, why should they consider you to sell, you know, to do your insurance, to sell their plane or to hire you.

Speaker 1: 25:49

Like we said, relationships are important. So I don't want my clients either to just like jump ship because a shiny new person is like, hey, come talk to me. So it's like you do have to prove your value too to a lot of people of why it's worth it to even be able to get the opportunity to do an audit.

Speaker 2: 26:06

Yeah, because I think people will say like oh, I sent an email, you know, to Samantha and she didn't get back to me. Oh my God, it's like come on like that, yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:17

Like did you pick up the phone? Did you like try to meet with them? Did you reach out on LinkedIn? Did you like there's gotta be so many other ways that you can do it? And also some people I found, like in sales there are different types of people, like you said. Some people are oh yeah, I'll, I'm open, you know, I'll open to a quote. There's like those people that are always like sure, and then there's people that it really is a relationship play too, and especially like those bigger accounts that you're talking about um, the bigger deals and the the bigger client. It is relationship based.

Speaker 1: 26:56

So you do kind of it might take time, too to build and you can't be impatient. You have to just understand hey, it might be a year before I get this client, but I'm going to keep working to build the relationship, because one day the agent's going to drop the ball and I'm going to be there, or one day they're going to just be more open to giving me a chance. So you got to. Really, it's important to actually build those relationships.

Speaker 1: 27:24

I think people like to skip over some of it to just get them in the door, and it's like yes, some people are going to automatically be like yes, I want to save money or you know, but there are a lot of people that it's not about money. For me. It's like sometimes it's not about money, it's are you well protected? Do you have the right coverages? Do you fly to Europe? Do you have that right cover? You know, it's like there's a lot of you know a lot of things that you have to build the relationship to get there, and so I think some people just want to like, just get an immediate yes, and that's just not the case just get an immediate yes, and that's just not the case.

Speaker 2: 28:05

And for me, I love the analogy of a runway where the more runway you have, the more you can take off. You know what I mean. Like, a heavy jet can't take off in a 3000 foot runway. You know, if you want the, the, the goal stream, the challenger to take off, it needs more runway. So if you're aiming big and want to get, you want oh, you want to talk to ultra high net worth individuals and handle their multimillion dollar assets and make sure nothing happens to them. Really, okay, I think you're going to need a big runway as opposed to calling, you know, joe Schmoe, who just got into a car accident, hasn't paid his premiums in three years and now he needs, you know, now he needs, like the bottom of the barrel, non-standard coverage. Yeah, that runway is going to be a lot smaller than what you're trying to do.

Speaker 1: 28:45

So we're not going to just give you an opportunity either. A lot of those big clients they're going to have more of a closed off approach and it really does take time to build that, in which I understand.

Speaker 2: 29:00

Yeah, and I'm even more to be honest.

Speaker 2: 29:07

Yeah, and I'm just from the perspective of a company that that that would hire, you know, someone to do that, like like the Baldwin group or whoever else is out there. You know, I, I, I, I talk a lot with BWI Aviation and they're more GA stuff, but that's, you know, I could see them being probably like a little bit of a shorter runway because it's more GA stuff, not to knock it or anything, but like just set your expectations right. And that's why we, you know, we like to say that you got to trade your excuses for the altitude that you're looking for. And when people say I'll do whatever it takes, like we're telling you whatever it takes, you just don't like that. It's not a magic bullet, you don't like that. It's actually building a relationship with someone, what takes a lot of time, energy and effort.

Speaker 1: 29:49

And it does, and it takes a lot of time, energy and effort, and then you don't. It's also like you don't see the benefit off. You know right away, and so you're not, but it really does pay off in the long run. So that.

Speaker 2: 30:05

That that's awesome, so thank you so much for for. Is there any parting words of advice that you would have for anyone who's who's looking to break into a aviation sales, maybe with little or no experience?

Speaker 1: 30:17

I would say talk to as many people as you can in the industry. You know network, get to know people, get to understand the industry, because the industry is so unique in every single different facet that people are working in and they all go together. And I would also say, work hard and just want to learn everything that you can. And I think the more that you work hard and the more that you don't ever feel like you can't stop learning. Like for me, I feel like I'm the best and I know all of this and that. But I'm always open to picking other brokers' brains. I'm always open to learning from other people in the industry. I always I'm still like I said, I'm going to go to that. You know the risk and that event at NBAA. Don't like, don't ever feel like you are at a point where you can't continue to grow and I think that when you put the work in, you're going to really see a lot of benefit.

Speaker 2: 31:25

Yeah, anybody wants to talk to them.

Speaker 1: 31:27

I'm happy to talk to them further about it, but it's a really great, great field. I love it. I would never do anything else, honestly.

Speaker 2: 31:38

So find you on LinkedIn. Definitely check her out on LinkedIn, especially her posts. She's got some great thought-provoking posts for everybody. But yeah, no, samantha, thank you so much for being here. I greatly appreciate it and look forward to connecting with you more, especially in Vegas. We'll see you in Vegas. That'll be a good time.